Semua Kabar

What Happens After A.I. Destroys College Writing?

On a blustery spring Thursday, just after midterms, I went out for noodles with Alex and Eugene, two undergraduates at New York University, to talk about how they use artificial intelligence in their schoolwork. When I first met Alex, last year, he was interested in a career in the arts, and he devoted a lot of his free time to photo shoots with his friends. But he had recently decided on a more practical path: he wanted to become a C.P.A. His Thursdays were busy, and he had forty-five minutes until a study session for an accounting class. He stowed his skateboard under a bench in the restaurant and shook his laptop out of his bag, connecting to the internet before we sat down.

Alex has wavy hair and speaks with the chill, singsong cadence of someone who has spent a lot of time in the Bay Area. He and Eugene scanned the menu, and Alex said that they should get clear broth, rather than spicy, “so we can both lock in our skin care.” Weeks earlier, when I’d messaged Alex, he had said that everyone he knew used ChatGPT in some fashion, but that he used it only for organizing his notes. In person, he admitted that this wasn’t remotely accurate. “Any type of writing in life, I use A.I.,” he said. He relied on Claude for research, DeepSeek for reasoning and explanation, and Gemini for image generation. ChatGPT served more general needs. “I need A.I. to text girls,” he joked, imagining an A.I.-enhanced version of Hinge. I asked if he had used A.I. when setting up our meeting. He laughed, and then replied, “Honestly, yeah. I’m not tryin’ to type all that. Could you tell?”

OpenAI released ChatGPT on November 30, 2022. Six days later, Sam Altman, the C.E.O., announced that it had reached a million users. Large language models like ChatGPT don’t “think” in the human sense—when you ask ChatGPT a question, it draws from the data sets it has been trained on and builds an answer based on predictable word patterns. Companies had experimented with A.I.-driven chatbots for years, but most sputtered upon release; Microsoft’s 2016 experiment with a bot named Tay was shut down after sixteen hours because it began spouting racist rhetoric and denying the Holocaust. But ChatGPT seemed different. It could hold a conversation and break complex ideas down into easy-to-follow steps. Within a month, Google’s management, fearful that A.I. would have an impact on its search-engine business, declared a “code red.”

Among educators, an even greater panic arose. It was too deep into the school term to implement a coherent policy for what seemed like a homework killer: in seconds, ChatGPT could collect and summarize research and draft a full essay. Many large campuses tried to regulate ChatGPT and its eventual competitors, mostly in vain. I asked Alex to show me an example of an A.I.-produced paper. Eugene wanted to see it, too. He used a different A.I. app to help with computations for his business classes, but he had never gotten the hang of using it for writing. “I got you,” Alex told him. (All the students I spoke with are identified by pseudonyms.)

He opened Claude on his laptop. I noticed a chat that mentioned abolition. “We had to read Robert Wedderburn for a class,” he explained, referring to the nineteenth-century Jamaican abolitionist. “But, obviously, I wasn’t tryin’ to read that.” He had prompted Claude for a summary, but it was too long for him to read in the ten minutes he had before class started. He told me, “I said, ‘Turn it into concise bullet points.’ ” He then transcribed Claude’s points in his notebook, since his professor ran a screen-free classroom.

Alex searched until he found a paper for an art-history class, about a museum exhibition. He had gone to the show, taken photographs of the images and the accompanying wall text, and then uploaded them to Claude, asking it to generate a paper according to the professor’s instructions. “I’m trying to do the least work possible, because this is a class I’m not hella fucking with,” he said. After skimming the essay, he felt that the A.I. hadn’t sufficiently addressed the professor’s questions, so he refined the prompt and told it to try again. In the end, Alex’s submission received the equivalent of an A-minus. He said that he had a basic grasp of the paper’s argument, but that if the professor had asked him for specifics he’d have been “so fucked.” I read the paper over Alex’s shoulder; it was a solid imitation of how an undergraduate might describe a set of images. If this had been 2007, I wouldn’t have made much of its generic tone, or of the precise, box-ticking quality of its critical observations.

Eugene, serious and somewhat solemn, had been listening with bemusement. “I would not cut and paste like he did, because I’m a lot more paranoid,” he said. He’s a couple of years younger than Alex and was in high school when ChatGPT was released. At the time, he experimented with A.I. for essays but noticed that it made easily noticed errors. “This passed the A.I. detector?” he asked Alex.

When ChatGPT launched, instructors adopted various measures to insure that students’ work was their own. These included requiring them to share time-stamped version histories of their Google documents, and designing written assignments that had to be completed in person, over multiple sessions. But most detective work occurs after submission. Services like GPTZero, Copyleaks, and Originality.ai analyze the structure and syntax of a piece of writing and assess the likelihood that it was produced by a machine. Alex said that his art-history professor was “hella old,” and therefore probably didn’t know about such programs. We fed the paper into a few different A.I.-detection websites. One said there was a twenty-eight-per-cent chance that the paper was A.I.-generated; another put the odds at sixty-one per cent. “That’s better than I expected,” Eugene said.

I asked if he thought what his friend had done was cheating, and Alex interrupted: “Of course. Are you fucking kidding me?”

As we looked at Alex’s laptop, I noticed that he had recently asked ChatGPT whether it was O.K. to go running in Nike Dunks. He had concluded that ChatGPT made for the best confidant. He consulted it as one might a therapist, asking for tips on dating and on how to stay motivated during dark times. His ChatGPT sidebar was an index of the highs and lows of being a young person. He admitted to me and Eugene that he’d used ChatGPT to draft his application to N.Y.U.—our lunch might never have happened had it not been for A.I. “I guess it’s really dishonest, but, fuck it, I’m here,” he said.

“It’s cheating, but I don’t think it’s, like,cheating,” Eugene said. He saw Alex’s art-history essay as a victimless crime. He was just fulfilling requirements, not training to become a literary scholar.

Alex had to rush off to his study session. I told Eugene that our conversation had made me wonder about my function as a professor. He asked if I taught English, and I nodded.

“Mm, O.K.,” he said, and laughed. “So you’re, like, majorly affected.”

I teach at a small liberal-arts college, and I often joke that a student is more likely to hand in a big paper a year late (as recently happened) than to take a dishonorable shortcut. My classes are small and intimate, driven by processes and pedagogical modes, like letting awkward silences linger, that are difficult to scale. As a result, I have always had a vague sense that my students are learningsomething, even when it is hard to quantify. In the past, if I was worried that a paper had been plagiarized, I would enter a few phrases from it into a search engine and call it due diligence. But I recently began noticing that some students’ writing seemed out of synch with how they expressed themselves in the classroom. One essay felt stitched together from two minds—half of it was polished and rote, the other intimate and unfiltered. Having never articulated a policy for A.I., I took the easy way out. The student had had enough shame to write half of the essay, and I focussed my feedback on improving that part.

It’s easy to get hung up on stories of academic dishonesty. Late last year, in a survey of college and university leaders, fifty-nine per cent reported an increase in cheating, a figure that feels conservative when you talk to students. A.I. has returned us to the question of what the point of higher education is. Until we’re eighteen, we go to school because we have to, studying the Second World War and reducing fractions while undergoing a process of socialization. We’re essentially learning how to follow rules. College, however, is a choice, and it has always involved the tacit agreement that students will fulfill a set of tasks, sometimes pertaining to subjects they find pointless or impractical, and then receive some kind of credential. But even for the most mercenary of students, the pursuit of a grade or a diploma has come with an ancillary benefit. You’re being taught how to do something difficult, and maybe, along the way, you come to appreciate the process of learning. But the arrival of A.I. means that you can now bypass the process, and the difficulty, altogether.

There are no reliable figures for how many American students use A.I., just stories about how everyone is doing it. A 2024 Pew Research Center survey of students between the ages of thirteen and seventeen suggests that a quarter of teens currently use ChatGPT for schoolwork, double the figure from 2023. OpenAI recently released a report claiming that one in three college students uses its products. There’s good reason to believe that these are low estimates. If you grew up Googling everything or using Grammarly to give your prose a professional gloss, it isn’t far-fetched to regard A.I. as just another productivity tool. “I see it as no different from Google,” Eugene said. “I use it for the same kind of purpose.”

Being a student is about testing boundaries and staying one step ahead of the rules. While administrators and educators have been debating new definitions for cheating and discussing the mechanics of surveillance, students have been embracing the possibilities of A.I. A few months after the release of ChatGPT, a Harvard undergraduate got approval to conduct an experiment in which it wrote papers that had been assigned in seven courses. The A.I. skated by with a 3.57 G.P.A., a little below the school’s average. Upstart companies introduced products that specialized in “humanizing” A.I.-generated writing, and TikTok influencers began coaching their audiences on how to avoid detection.

Unable to keep pace, academic administrations largely stopped trying to control students’ use of artificial intelligence and adopted an attitude of hopeful resignation, encouraging teachers to explore the practical, pedagogical applications of A.I. In certain fields, this wasn’t a huge stretch. Studies show that A.I. is particularly effective in helping non-native speakers acclimate to college-level writing in English. In someSTEMclasses, using generative A.I. as a tool is acceptable. Alex and Eugene told me that their accounting professor encouraged them to take advantage of free offers on new A.I. products available only to undergraduates, as companies competed for student loyalty throughout the spring. In May, OpenAI announced ChatGPT Edu, a product specifically marketed for educational use, after schools including Oxford University, Arizona State University, and the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School of Business experimented with incorporating A.I. into their curricula. This month, the company detailed plans to integrate ChatGPT into every dimension of campus life, with students receiving “personalized” A.I. accounts to accompany them throughout their years in college.

But for English departments, and for college writing in general, the arrival of A.I. has been more vexed. Why bother teaching writing now? The future of the midterm essay may be a quaint worry compared with larger questions about the ramifications of artificial intelligence, such as its effect on the environment, or the automation of jobs. And yet has there ever been a time in human history when writing was so important to the average person? E-mails, texts, social-media posts, angry missives in comments sections, customer-service chats—let alone one’s actual work. The way we write shapes our thinking. We process the world through the composition of text dozens of times a day, in what the literary scholar Deborah Brandt calls our era of “mass writing.” It’s possible that the ability to write original and interesting sentences will become only more important in a future where everyone has access to the same A.I. assistants.

Corey Robin, a writer and a professor of political science at Brooklyn College, read the early stories about ChatGPT with skepticism. Then his daughter, a sophomore in high school at the time, used it to produce an essay that was about as good as those his undergraduates wrote after a semester of work. He decided to stop assigning take-home essays. For the first time in his thirty years of teaching, he administered in-class exams.

Robin told me he finds many of the steps that universities have taken to combat A.I. essays to be “hand-holding that’s not leading people anywhere.” He has become a believer in the passage-identification blue-book exam, in which students name and contextualize excerpts of what they’ve read for class. “Know the text and write about it intelligently,” he said. “That was a way of honoring their autonomy without being a cop.”

His daughter, who is now a senior, complains that her teachers rarely assign full books. And Robin has noticed that college students are more comfortable with excerpts than with entire articles, and prefer short stories to novels. “I don’t get the sense they have the kind of literary or cultural mastery that used to be the assumption upon which we assigned papers,” he said. One study, published last year, found that fifty-eight per cent of students at two Midwestern universities had so much trouble interpreting the opening paragraphs of “Bleak House,” by Charles Dickens, that “they would not be able to read the novel on their own.” And these were English majors.

The return to pen and paper has been a common response to A.I. among professors, with sales of blue books rising significantly at certain universities in the past two years. Siva Vaidhyanathan, a professor of media studies at the University of Virginia, grew dispirited after some students submitted what he suspected was A.I.-generated work for an assignment on how the school’s honor code should view A.I.-generated work. He, too, has decided to return to blue books, and is pondering the logistics of oral exams. “Maybe we go all the way back to 450 B.C.,” he told me.

But other professors have renewed their emphasis on getting students to see the value of process. Dan Melzer, the director of the first-year composition program at the University of California, Davis, recalled that “everyone was in a panic” when ChatGPT first hit. Melzer’s job is to think about how writing functions across the curriculum so that all students, from prospective scientists to future lawyers, get a chance to hone their prose. Consequently, he has an accommodating view of how norms around communication have changed, especially in the internet age. He was sympathetic to kids who viewed some of their assignments as dull and mechanical and turned to ChatGPT to expedite the process. He called the five-paragraph essay—the classic “hamburger” structure, consisting of an introduction, three supporting body paragraphs, and a conclusion—“outdated,” having descended from élitist traditions.

Melzer believes that some students loathe writing because of how it’s been taught, particularly in the past twenty-five years. The No Child Left Behind Act, from 2002, instituted standards-based reforms across all public schools, resulting in generations of students being taught to write according to rigid testing rubrics. As one teacher wrote in the WashingtonPostin 2013, students excelled when they mastered a form of “bad writing.” Melzer has designed workshops that treat writing as a deliberative, iterative process involving drafting, feedback (from peers and also from ChatGPT), and revision.

“If you assign a generic essay topic and don’t engage in any process, and you just collect it a month later, it’s almost like you’re creating an environment tailored to crime,” he said. “You’re encouraging crime in your community!”

I found Melzer’s pedagogical approach inspiring; I instantly felt bad for routinely breaking my class into small groups so that they could “workshop” their essays, as though the meaning of this verb were intuitively clear. But, as a student, I’d have found Melzer’s focus on process tedious—it requires a measure of faith that all the work will pay off in the end. Writing is hard, regardless of whether it’s a five-paragraph essay or a haiku, and it’s natural, especially when you’re a college student, to want to avoid hard work—this is why classes like Melzer’s are compulsory. “You can imagine that students really want to be there,” he joked.

College is all about opportunity costs. One way of viewing A.I. is as an intervention in how people choose to spend their time. In the early nineteen-sixties, college students spent an estimated twenty-four hours a week on schoolwork. Today, that figure is about fifteen, a sign, to critics of contemporary higher education, that young people are beneficiaries of grade inflation—in a survey conducted by theHarvardCrimson, nearly eighty per cent of the class of 2024 reported a G.P.A. of 3.7 or higher—and lack the diligence of their forebears. I don’t know how many hours I spent on schoolwork in the late nineties, when I was in college, but I recall feeling that there was never enough time. I suspect that, even if today’s students spend less time studying, they don’t feel significantly less stressed. It’s the nature of campus life that everyone assimilates into a culture of busyness, and a lot of that anxiety has been shifted to extracurricular or pre-professional pursuits. A dean at Harvard remarked that students feel compelled to find distinction outside the classroom because they are largely indistinguishable within it.

Eddie, a sociology major at Long Beach State, is older than most of his classmates. He graduated high school in 2010, and worked full time while attending a community college. “I’ve gone through a lot to be at school,” he told me. “I want to learn as much as I can.” ChatGPT, which his therapist recommended to him, was ubiquitous at Long Beach even before the California State University system, which Long Beach is a part of, announced a partnership with OpenAI, giving its four hundred and sixty thousand students access to ChatGPT Edu. “I was a little suspicious of how convenient it was,” Eddie said. “It seemed to know a lot, in a way that seemed sohuman.”

He told me that he used A.I. “as a brainstorm” but never for writing itself. “I limit myself, for sure.” Eddie works for Los Angeles County, and he was talking to me during a break. He admitted that, when he was pressed for time, he would sometimes use ChatGPT for quizzes. “I don’t know if I’m telling myself a lie,” he said. “I’ve given myself opportunities to do things ethically, but if I’m rushing to work I don’t feel bad about that,” particularly for courses outside his major.

I recognized Eddie’s conflict. I’ve used ChatGPT a handful of times, and on one occasion it accomplished a scheduling task so quickly that I began to understand the intoxication of hyper-efficiency. I’ve felt the need to stop myself from indulging in idle queries. Almost all the students I interviewed in the past few months described the same trajectory: from using A.I. to assist with organizing their thoughts to off-loading their thinking altogether. For some, it became something akin to social media, constantly open in the corner of the screen, a portal for distraction. This wasn’t like paying someone to write a paper for you—there was no social friction, no aura of illicit activity. Nor did it feel like sharing notes, or like passing off what you’d read in CliffsNotes or SparkNotes as your own analysis. There was no real time to reflect on questions of originality or honesty—the student basically became a project manager. And for students who use it the way Eddie did, as a kind of sounding board, there’s no clear threshold where the work ceases to be an original piece of thinking. In April, Anthropic, the company behind Claude, released a report drawn from a million anonymized student conversations with its chatbots. It suggested that more than half of user interactions could be classified as “collaborative,” involving a dialogue between student and A.I. (Presumably, the rest of the interactions were more extractive.)

May, a sophomore at Georgetown, was initially resistant to using ChatGPT. “I don’t know if it was an ethics thing,” she said. “I just thought I could do the assignment better, and it wasn’t worth the time being saved.” But she began using it to proofread her essays, and then to generate cover letters, and now she uses it for “pretty much all” her classes. “I don’t think it’s made me a worse writer,” she said. “It’s perhaps made me a less patient writer. I used to spend hours writing essays, nitpicking over my wording, really thinking about how to phrase things.” College had made her reflect on her experience at an extremely competitive high school, where she had received top grades but retained very little knowledge. As a result, she was the rare student who found college somewhat relaxed. ChatGPT helped her breeze through busywork and deepen her engagement with the courses she felt passionate about. “I was trying to think, Where’s all this time going?” she said. I had never envied a college student until she told me the answer: “I sleep more now.”

Harry Stecopoulos oversees the University of Iowa’s English department, which has more than eight hundred majors. On the first day of his introductory course, he asks students to write by hand a two-hundred-word analysis of the opening paragraph of Ralph Ellison’s “Invisible Man.” There are always a few grumbles, and students have occasionally walked out. “I like the exercise as a tone-setter, because it stresses their writing,” he told me.

The return of blue-book exams might disadvantage students who were encouraged to master typing at a young age. Once you’ve grown accustomed to the smooth rhythms of typing, reverting to a pen and paper can feel stifling. But neuroscientists have found that the “embodied experience” of writing by hand taps into parts of the brain that typing does not. Being able to write one way—even if it’s more efficient—doesn’t make the other way obsolete. There’s something lofty about Stecopoulos’s opening-day exercise. But there’s another reason for it: the handwritten paragraph also begins a paper trail, attesting to voice and style, that a teaching assistant can consult if a suspicious paper is submitted.

Kevin, a third-year student at Syracuse University, recalled that, on the first day of a class, the professor had asked everyone to compose some thoughts by hand. “That brought a smile to my face,” Kevin said. “The other kids are scratching their necks and sweating, and I’m, like, This is kind of nice.”

Kevin had worked as a teaching assistant for a mandatory course that first-year students take to acclimate to campus life. Writing assignments involved basic questions about students’ backgrounds, he told me, but they often used A.I. anyway. “I was very disturbed,” he said. He occasionally uses A.I. to help with translations for his advanced Arabic course, but he’s come to look down on those who rely heavily on it. “They almost forget that they have the ability to think,” he said. Like many former holdouts, Kevin felt that his judicious use of A.I. was more defensible than his peers’ use of it.

As ChatGPT begins to sound more human, will we reconsider what it means to sound like ourselves? Kevin and some of his friends pride themselves on having an ear attuned to A.I.-generated text. The hallmarks, he said, include a preponderance of em dashes and a voice that feels blandly objective. An acquaintance had run an essay that she had written herself through a detector, because she worried that she was starting to phrase things like ChatGPT did. He read her essay: “I realized, like, It does kind of sound like ChatGPT. It was freaking me out a little bit.”

A particularly disarming aspect of ChatGPT is that, if you point out a mistake, it communicates in the backpedalling tone of a contrite student. (“Apologies for the earlier confusion. . . .”) Its mistakes are often referred to as hallucinations, a description that seems to anthropomorphize A.I., conjuring a vision of a sleep-deprived assistant. Some professors told me that they had students fact-check ChatGPT’s work, as a way of discussing the importance of original research and of showing the machine’s fallibility. Hallucination rates have grown worse for most A.I.s, with no single reason for the increase. As a researcher told theTimes, “We still don’t know how these models work exactly.”

But many students claim to be unbothered by A.I.’s mistakes. They appear nonchalant about the question of achievement, and even dissociated from their work, since it is only notionally theirs. Joseph, a Division I athlete at a Big Ten school, told me that he saw no issue with using ChatGPT for his classes, but he did make one exception: he wanted to experience his African-literature course “authentically,” because it involved his heritage. Alex, the N.Y.U. student, said that if one of his A.I. papers received a subpar grade his disappointment would be focussed on the fact that he’d spent twenty dollars on his subscription. August, a sophomore at Columbia studying computer science, told me about a class where she was required to compose a short lecture on a topic of her choosing. “It was a class where everyone was guaranteed an A, so I just put it in and I maybe edited like two words and submitted it,” she said. Her professor identified her essay as exemplary work, and she was asked to read from it to a class of two hundred students. “I was a little nervous,” she said. But then she realized, “If they don’t like it, it wasn’t me who wrote it, you know?”

Kevin, by contrast, desired a more general kind of moral distinction. I asked if he would be bothered to receive a lower grade on an essay than a classmate who’d used ChatGPT. “Part of me is able to compartmentalize and not be pissed about it,” he said. “I developed myself as a human. I can have a superiority complex about it. I learned more.” He smiled. But then he continued, “Part of me can also be, like, This is so unfair. I would have loved to hang out with my friends more. What did I gain? I made my life harder for all that time.”

In my conversations, just as college students invariably thought of ChatGPT as merely another tool, people older than forty focussed on its effects, drawing a comparison to G.P.S. and the erosion of our relationship to space. The London cabdrivers rigorously trained in “the knowledge” famously developed abnormally large posterior hippocampi, the part of the brain crucial for long-term memory and spatial awareness. And yet, in the end, most people would probably rather have swifter travel than sharper memories. What is worth preserving, and what do we feel comfortable off-loading in the name of efficiency?

What if we take seriously the idea that A.I. assistance can accelerate learning—that students today are arriving at their destinations faster? In 2023, researchers at Harvard introduced a self-paced A.I. tutor in a popular physics course. Students who used the A.I. tutor reported higher levels of engagement and motivation and did better on a test than those who were learning from a professor. May, the Georgetown student, told me that she often has ChatGPT produce extra practice questions when she’s studying for a test. Could A.I. be here not to destroy education but to revolutionize it? Barry Lam teaches in the philosophy department at the University of California, Riverside, and hosts a popular podcast, Hi-Phi Nation, which applies philosophical modes of inquiry to everyday topics. He began wondering what it would mean for A.I. to actually be a productivity tool. He spoke to me from the podcast studio he built in his shed. “Now students are able to generate in thirty seconds what used to take me a week,” he said. He compared education to carpentry, one of his many hobbies. Could you skip to using power tools without learning how to saw by hand? If students were learning things faster, then it stood to reason that Lam could assign them “something very hard.” He wanted to test this theory, so for final exams he gave his undergraduates a Ph.D.-level question involving denotative language and the German logician Gottlob Frege which was, frankly, beyond me.

“They fucking failed it miserably,” he said. He adjusted his grading curve accordingly.

Lam doesn’t find the use of A.I. morally indefensible. “It’s not plagiarism in the cut-and-paste sense,” he argued, because there’s technically no original version. Rather, he finds it a potential waste of everyone’s time. At the start of the semester, he has told students, “If you’re gonna just turn in a paper that’s ChatGPT-generated, then I will grade all your work by ChatGPT and we can all go to the beach.”

Nobody gets into teaching because he loves grading papers. I talked to one professor who rhapsodized about how much more his students were learning now that he’d replaced essays with short exams. I asked if he missed marking up essays. He laughed and said, “No comment.” An undergraduate at Northeastern University recently accused a professor of using A.I. to create course materials; she filed a formal complaint with the school, requesting a refund for some of her tuition. The dustup laid bare the tension between why many people go to college and why professors teach. Students are raised to understand achievement as something discrete and measurable, but when they arrive at college there are people like me, imploring them to wrestle with difficulty and abstraction. Worse yet, they are told that grades don’t matter as much as they did when they were trying to get into college—only, by this point, students are wired to find the most efficient path possible to good marks.

As the craft of writing is degraded by A.I., original writing has become a valuable resource for training language models. Earlier this year, a company called Catalyst Research Alliance advertised “academic speech data and student papers” from two research studies run in the late nineties and mid-two-thousands at the University of Michigan. The school asked the company to halt its work—the data was available for free to academics anyway—and a university spokesperson said that student data “was not and has never been for sale.” But the situation did lead many people to wonder whether institutions would begin viewing original student work as a potential revenue stream.

According to a recent study from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, human intellect has declined since 2012. An assessment of tens of thousands of adults in nearly thirty countries showed an over-all decade-long drop in test scores for math and for reading comprehension. Andreas Schleicher, the director for education and skills at the O.E.C.D., hypothesized that the way we consume information today—often through short social-media posts—has something to do with the decline in literacy. (One of Europe’s top performers in the assessment was Estonia, which recently announced that it will bring A.I. to some high-school students in the next few years, sidelining written essays and rote homework exercises in favor of self-directed learning and oral exams.)

Lam, the philosophy professor, used to be a colleague of mine, and for a brief time we were also neighbors. I’d occasionally look out the window and see him building a fence, or gardening. He’s an avid amateur cook, guitarist, and carpenter, and he remains convinced that there is value to learning how to do things the annoying, old-fashioned, and—as he puts it—“artisanal” way. He told me that his wife, Shanna Andrawis, who has been a high-school teacher since 2008, frequently disagreed with his cavalier methods for dealing with large learning models. Andrawis argues that dishonesty has always been an issue. “We are trying to mass educate,” she said, meaning there’s less room to be precious about the pedagogical process. “I don’t have conversations with students about ‘artisanal’ writing. But I have conversations with them about our relationship. Respect me enough to give me your authentic voice, even if you don’t think it’s that great. It’s O.K. I want to meet you where you’re at.”

Ultimately, Andrawis was less fearful of ChatGPT than of the broader conditions of being young these days. Her students have grown increasingly introverted, staring at their phones with little desire to “practice getting over that awkwardness” that defines teen life, as she put it. A.I. might contribute to this deterioration, but it isn’t solely to blame. It’s “a little cherry on top of an already really bad ice-cream sundae,” she said.

When the school year began, my feelings about ChatGPT were somewhere between disappointment and disdain, focussed mainly on students. But, as the weeks went by, my sense of what should be done and who was at fault grew hazier. Eliminating core requirements, rethinking G.P.A., teaching A.I. skepticism—none of the potential fixes could turn back the preconditions of American youth. Professors can reconceive of the classroom, but there is only so much we control. I lacked faith that educational institutions would ever regard new technologies as anything but inevitable. Colleges and universities, many of which had tried to curb A.I. use just a few semesters ago, rushed to partner with companies like OpenAI and Anthropic, deeming a product that didn’t exist four years ago essential to the future of school.

Except for a year spent bumming around my home town, I’ve basically been on a campus for the past thirty years. Students these days view college as consumers, in ways that never would have occurred to me when I was their age. They’ve grown up at a time when society values high-speed takes, not the slow deliberation of critical thinking. Although I’ve empathized with my students’ various mini-dramas, I rarely project myself into their lives. I notice them noticing one another, and I let the mysteries of their lives go. Their pressures are so different from the ones I felt as a student. Although I envy their metabolisms, I would not wish for their sense of horizons.

Education, particularly in the humanities, rests on a belief that, alongside the practical things students might retain, some arcane idea mentioned in passing might take root in their mind, blossoming years in the future. A.I. allows any of us to feel like an expert, but it is risk, doubt, and failure that make us human. I often tell my students that this is the last time in their lives that someone will have to read something they write, so they might as well tell me what they actually think.

Despite all the current hysteria around students cheating, they aren’t the ones to blame. They did not lobby for the introduction of laptops when they were in elementary school, and it’s not their fault that they had to go to school on Zoom during the pandemic. They didn’t create the A.I. tools, nor were they at the forefront of hyping technological innovation. They were just early adopters, trying to outwit the system at a time when doing so has never been so easy. And they have no more control than the rest of us. Perhaps they sense this powerlessness even more acutely than I do. One moment, they are being told to learn to code; the next, it turns out employers are looking for the kind of “soft skills” one might learn as an English or a philosophy major. In February, a labor report from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York reported that computer-science majors had a higher unemployment rate than ethnic-studies majors did—the result, some believed, of A.I. automating entry-level coding jobs.

None of the students I spoke with seemed lazy or passive. Alex and Eugene, the N.Y.U. students, worked hard—but part of their effort went to editing out anything in their college experiences that felt extraneous. They were radically resourceful.

When classes were over and students were moving into their summer housing, I e-mailed with Alex, who was settling in in the East Village. He’d just finished his finals, and estimated that he’d spent between thirty minutes and an hour composing two papers for his humanities classes. Without the assistance of Claude, it might have taken him around eight or nine hours. “I didn’t retain anything,” he wrote. “I couldn’t tell you the thesis for either paper hahhahaha.” He received an A-minus and a B-plus. ♦

Officials probe livestreamed murder of TikTok star who denounced gang

June 24, 2025 / 9:21 AM EDT/ CBS/AFP

The Venezuelan prosecutor's office said Monday it has launched an investigation into the livestreamed murder of a popular TikTok user who had denounced theTren de Araguacriminal gang and allegedly corrupt police officials.

Jesus Sarmiento, who had nearly 80,000 followers on TikTok, was murdered over the weekend by armed men who broke into the residence where he was staying.

In the video shared on social media, a woman banging on a door and screaming for help can be heard in the background.

"They shot me, they shot me," Sarmiento says, as blood is visible on the floor. Two armed men appear briefly before the stream ends.

"Attorney General Tarek William Saab announces that the Public Prosecutor's Office… has been tasked with investigating, identifying, and punishing those responsible for the assassination of Jesus Sarmiento," the prosecutor's office announced on Instagram on Monday.

A post shared by Fiscal General de Venezuela 🇻🇪 (@mpublicove)

Sarmiento had "denounced the threats he was receiving from members of GEDOS (Structured Organized Crime Group) and alleged police officers," the prosecutor's office said in a statement.

In his TikTok posts, Sarmiento spoke about the leader of the Tren de Aragua, Hector Rusthenford Guerrero, who is one of the country's most wanted criminals known by the alias "Nino Guerrero." The U.S. State Department hasoffered a $5 million rewardfor information leading to his arrest and conviction.

The Venezuelan government has maintained that the Tren de Aragua — which the U.S.considers a "terrorist" organization— has already been dismantled and denies its existence.

Sarmiento shared photos and videos of alleged members of the gang and denounced the "extortion" by police officers.

"I was kidnapped by… DAET — the police's Directorate of Strategic and Tactical Actions," he stated in one of his final videos.

"We are overrun with delinquent officials who work with common criminals," he added.

Sarmiento's murder marks the latest in a string of deadly attacks on popular social media figures.

Earlier this month, Pakistani police said 17-year-old TikTok starSana Yousafwas shot dead by a man who had repeatedly contacted her online.

And last month, themurder of a young influencerduring a livestream in Jalisco, in western Mexico, shocked the country. Authorities insisted there was no "evidence" that the murder of 23-year-oldValeria Márquezwas linked to organized crime, and prosecutors opened an investigation for "femicide."

© 2025 CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Agence France-Presse contributed to this report.

Trump says he’s “terminating all discussions on trade with Canada”

Updated on: June 27, 2025 / 4:35 PM EDT/ CBS News

Update:Trade talks resumed afterCanada dropped plansfor a digital services tax.Read more here. Our earlier story is below.

President Trump says he's "terminating all discussions on trade with Canada, effective immediately," after Canada announced a digital services tax on large foreign and domestic technology companies.

Posting onTruth Socialon Friday afternoon, the president said the U.S. will let Canada know what their tariff rate will be in the next week. The trade talks blowup comes only a week after the president met with Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney at the Group of Seveneconomic summitin Alberta.

"We have just been informed that Canada, a very difficult Country to TRADE with, including the fact that they have charged our Farmers as much as 400% Tariffs, for years, on Dairy Products, has just announced that they are putting a Digital Services Tax on our American Technology Companies, which is a direct and blatant attack on our Country," the president wrote. "They are obviously copying the European Union, which has done the same thing, and is currently under discussion with us, also. Based on this egregious Tax, we are hereby terminating ALL discussions on Trade with Canada, effective immediately."

Canada's digital services tax, which was enacted last year, will hit tech giants like Amazon, Alphabet (Google's parent company), Meta and Uber with a 3% tax on revenue from users in Canada. The Associated Press reports the retroactive tax bill is expected to cost U.S. companies $2 billion, due at the end of June.

The post came shortly after Mr. Trump told reporters in apress conferenceat the White House that he will soon be sending letters to countries with whom trade talks aren't going well, and tell them what their tariff rate is.

Canada is one of the United States' biggest trading partners. The U.S. has imposed tariffs on most imports from Canada, and Canada has hit back with tariffs on U.S. exports to Canada.

Prime Minister Carney said Canada would "continue to conduct these complex negotiations in the best interests of Canadians. It's a negotiation."

Candace Laing, the president and CEO of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, said in a statement, "Negotiations go through peaks and valleys. With deadlines approaching, some last-minute surprises should be expected." She added, "The tone and tenor of talks has improved in recent months, and we hope to see progress continue."

Kathryn Watson is a politics reporter for CBS News Digital, based in Washington, D.C.

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Ancient city possibly ruled by females over 9,000 years ago, researchers say

June 28, 2025 / 4:26 PM EDT/ CBS News

An ancient city was most likely ruled by females living in a "matriarchal society" more than 9,000 years ago, according to a studypublishedin Science this week.

Researchers extracted the ancient genomes of more than 130 skeletons from 35 different houses at Çatalhöyük,an ancient cityconsidered one of the most well-preserved Neolithic settlements in southern Anatolia in Turkey. About 395 skeletons, a mix of males and females, were found in grave pits under the floors of the city's mudbrick houses. Occupied for more than 1,000 years (9000 to 8000 BCE), the city was known for its female figurines, possible representatives of a "Mother Goddess" cult and signs of a matriarchal society.

A team of geneticists, archaeologists, and biological anthropologists used cutting-edge technology to analyze the DNA of skeletons over 12 years and found that maternal lineage had a key role in connecting household members, as represented by burials within each building.

During the early years in Çatalhöyük, family members were buried together, but over time, habits changed, and researchers found many of the dead had no biological connection. Where there was a genetic connection, it was through the female line, suggesting husbands relocated to the wife's household upon marriage, researchers said.

Using genetic sequencing, researchers estimated that 70 to 100% of the time, female offspring remained connected to buildings, whereas adult male offspring may have moved away. There was also a clear pattern of preferential treatment toward females, with findings showing five times more grave goods offered to females than to males.

"We need to move away from our Western bias that assumes all societies are patrilineal. Many cultures, including some Indigenous Australian groups, pass identity, land rights, and responsibilities through the mother's line — a matrilineal system," study co-author Dr. Eline Schotsmans,a research fellowat Australia's University of Wollongong's School of Science,saidin a statement.

These findings come several months after researchers studying social networks in Celtic society in Britain before the Roman invasion gathered genetic evidence from a late Iron Age cemetery andfoundthat women were closely related, while unrelated men tended to come into the community from elsewhere, likely after marriage.

Using an examination of ancient DNA recovered from 57 graves in Dorset in southwest England, their study, published in thejournal Nature, shows that two-thirds of the individuals were descended from a single maternal lineage. This suggests that women had some control of land and property, as well as strong social support, researchers said.

Researchers said upon the release of their findings, "It is possible that maternal ancestry was the primary shaper of group identities."

The Associated Presscontributed to this report.

Cara Tabachnick is a news editor at CBSNews.com. Cara began her career on the crime beat at Newsday. She has written for Marie Claire, The Washington Post and The Wall Street Journal. She reports on justice and human rights issues. Contact her at cara.tabachnick@cbsinteractive.com

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Photos: Jeff Bezos, Lauren Sánchez’s wedding draws celebrity crowd

Updated on: June 28, 2025 / 7:16 PM EDT/ CBS News

Billionaire Amazon founder Jeff Bezos and former TV journalist Lauren Sánchezgot marriedin Venice, Italy, on Friday, with a star-studded celebrity guest list joining them for the festivities.

Sánchez posted a photo of the coupleon Instagram, showing herself in a fitted wedding dress with a long train, high neck and lace sleeves, and Bezos in a classic black tuxedo, as their guests clapped. She toldVoguethe Dolce & Gabbana gown made her "feel like a princess."

Wedding location details were kept under wraps, but Italian newspapers and Venetian locals predicted it would take place at San Giorgio Maggiore, one of the Venetian islands, which is known for the Church of San Giorgio Maggiore. Bezos and Sanchez invited some 200 guests, and many were seen boarding water taxis to the island for Friday's festivities.

This is the second marriage for both Bezos, 61, and Sánchez, 55. Bezos was previously married tophilanthropist Mackenzie Scott, but the pair divorced in 2019. Sánchez's first marriage to Patrick Whitesell, the executive chair of the talent firm Endeavor, also ended in 2019.

Ahead of the nuptials, movie stars, TV personalities and business titans were sighted around Venice. Some were seen arriving on Thursday at the Madonna dell'Orto church for the first of several planned events. Some of the more recognizable names seen in photos include Leonardo DiCaprio, Orlando Bloom, the Kardashians and Jenners, Oprah Winfrey, Gayle King, Tom Brady, Bill Gates, Diane von Furstenberg, Usher, Ivanka Trump and her husband, Jared Kushner.

The influx of so much money and star power prompted protests from local Venetian residents, who launched the "No Space for Bezos" campaign. It comes amid abroader pushback against an overload of touristsacross Europe, with some blaming the crowds of visitors for increased costs and rent.

But nothing seemed to mar the celebratory mood as Bezos, Sánchez and their guests gathered for the big day.

Celebrations started on Thursday, with guests gathering for a reception ahead of the wedding day. Photos captured many celebrity guests boarding water taxis and enjoying the beautiful surroundings.

Jordan Freiman is a news editor for CBSNews.com. He covers breaking news, trending stories, sports and crime. Jordan has previously worked at Spin and Death and Taxes.

© 2025 CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Trump calls for ceasefire in Gaza as Israeli military orders more evacuations

June 29, 2025 / 10:55 AM EDT/ CBS/AP

President Trump on Sunday pleaded for progress in ceasefire talks that would halt the fighting in the20-month-long conflict in Gaza. The call for a deal came as the Israeli military ordered a new mass evacuation in northern Gaza amid its escalating attacks on the territory.

"MAKE THE DEAL IN GAZA. GET THE HOSTAGES BACK!!!" Mr. Trump wrote early Sunday on his social media platform,Truth Social, in between posts about a Senate vote on his tax and spending cuts bill.

Mr. Trump raisedexpectations on Friday when he told reporters in the Oval Officethat there could be a ceasefire agreement within the next week.

"We're working on Gaza and trying to get it taken care of."

A top adviser to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Cabinet Minister Ron Dermer, was set to travel to Washington this week for talks on a ceasefire, an Israeli official said.

The official said plans were also being made for Netanyahu to travel to Washington in the coming weeks, a sign there may be movement on a new deal. The official declined to discuss the focus of the visit and spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss plans that had not yet been finalized.

Mr. Trump has repeatedly called for Israel and Hamas to end the nearly two-year war in the Gaza Strip. Despite an eight-week ceasefire reached just as Mr. Trump took office in January, attempts to bring the sides toward a new agreement have failed, faltering over one major sticking point: whether the war should end as part of any ceasefire agreement.

Mahmoud Merdawi, a Hamas official, accused Netanyahu of stalling progress on a deal, saying in remarks on the Telegram messaging app that the Israeli leader insists on a temporary agreement that would free just 10 of the hostages.

Netanyahu spokesperson Omer Dostri said: "Hamas was the only obstacle to ending the war," without addressing Merdawi's claim.

Hamas says it is willing to free all the hostages in exchange for a full withdrawal of Israeli troops and an end to the war. Israel rejects that offer, saying it will agree to end the war if Hamas surrenders, disarms and goes into exile, something the group refuses.

Thewar in Gazabegan on Oct. 7, 2023, when Hamas terrorists attacked Israel, killing 1,200 people and taking roughly 250 hostage, about 50 of whom remain captive, with less than half believed to be alive.

Gaza's Hamas-run Health Ministry on Sunday said an additional 88 people were killed by Israeli fire over the past 24 hours, raising the death toll to 56,500 in over 20 months of fighting. The ministry does not distinguish between militants and civilians in their count but says more than half of the dead are women and children.

The Israeli military on Sunday ordered a mass evacuation of Palestinians in large swaths of northern Gaza. Col. Avichay Adraee, a military spokesperson, posted the order on social media. It includes multiple neighborhoods in eastern and northern Gaza City, as well as the Jabaliya refugee camp.

The Gaza message wasn't the only Middle East-related post by Mr. Trump this weekend. On Saturday evening, he doubled down on his criticism of the legal proceedings against Netanyahu, who is on trial for alleged corruption, calling it "a POLITICAL WITCH HUNT, very similar to the Witch Hunt that I was forced to endure."  It comes just days after the president intervened to support Netanyahu's attack on Iran's nuclear program, using special U.S. bunker buster bombs.

In thepost on Truth Social, Mr. Trump said the trial interfered with talks on a Gaza ceasefire.

"(Netanyahu) is right now in the process of negotiating a Deal with Hamas, which will include getting the Hostages back. How is it possible that the Prime Minister of Israel can be forced to sit in a Courtroom all day long, over NOTHING," Mr. Trump wrote.

The post echoed similar remarks Mr. Trump made last week when he called for the trial to be canceled. Legal experts say it is unusual for a close ally of one state to interfere so directly in the domestic affairs of another, especially when it concerns an ongoing court case.

The trial has repeatedly been postponed at the request of Netanyahu, citing security and diplomatic developments. On Sunday, the court agreed to call off two more days of testimony by Netanyahu scheduled this week.

© 2025 CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. The Associated Press contributed to this report.

Transcript: Sen. Mark Warner on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan,” June 29, 2025

Updated on: June 29, 2025 / 1:00 PM EDT/ CBS News

The following is the transcript of an interview with Sen. Mark Warner, Democrat of Virginia, that will air on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan" on June 29, 2025.

MARGARET BRENNAN: We begin today with Virginia Democrat Mark Warner. He is the Vice Chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee. Good morning.

SEN. MARK WARNER: Good morning.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You've been, probably, sleep-deprived with all of what is happening, but I want to ask you about what's going on in Capitol Hill. Republicans are going to pass this along party lines. It's expected, right? But, it includes things in here that Democrats, including you, had supported, right? The no taxes on tips provision, more money for Border Patrol, expansion of the Child Care Tax Credit upwards of $2,000. Why vote against it, when there are popular provisions within it, and doesn't that just allow the President to say, oh, you want to raise taxes?

SEN. WARNER: You can put as much lipstick on this pig as you want. This will- this will be a political albatross for the Republicans —

SEN. WARNER:  — because it takes 16 million Americans off of health care coverage with cuts to Medicaid, and cuts to the Obamacare marketplace. That will move us, as a nation, back to the same percentage of uninsured we had before- before Obamacare. And, it's not like these people are not going to get sick. They're going to show up at the emergency room. Rural hospitals are going to shut down. That has been evidenced across the nation. It also goes after food assistance. So we are really in such a place that we're cutting, in my state, a couple hundred thousand people off of school lunches, school breakfasts. They even cut food banks. It's- it's cruel. They have also ended up, at the end of the day, cutting 20,000-plus clean energy jobs. And for what? This was to make sure that the highest, most wealthy Americans can get an extra tax-break. And, as you just saw on your chyron, there, it adds $4.5 trillion to the debt. I think many of my Republican friends know they're walking the plank on this, and we'll see if those who've expressed quiet consternation will actually have the courage of their convictions.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, some of the Republicans are arguing, well, we have to deal with these entitlements and the work requirements and things that may lead to some of the lack of qualifications you talk about. They're not that burdensome. It's volunteer work or part-time work. So, are you overstating it?

SEN. WARNER: No. It's 16 million Americans off of health care. You know, Medicaid cuts- these numbers, they're not my numbers. They're all independent sources. And what- the thing that I don't think people have realized is people say, well, Medicaid, I'm not poor. I, maybe, buy my health insurance through the marketplace. Your rates will go up $800 or $900 a month. And that will trickle through the whole rest of the healthcare market, because if you suddenly take people out of the system, they show up at the emergency room in uncompensated care. The only way those costs get passed on, is higher health insurance to all of us who have traditional coverage.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, if this is so against their own interest, why haven't you been able to peel more Republicans away?

SEN. WARNER: Well, I think we'll see. Even as recently as just an hour ago, some of the special Medicaid provisions for certain states, I think, were disallowed because of the so-called Byrd Rule. It's not over until it's over. I will give you- I will grant that President Trump has been able to hold his party in line in an unprecedented manner. At the other end, this bill will come back and bite them. This is going to do so much damage in terms of, not only health care, food assistance, you know, the whole notion that we are moving towards cleaner energy jobs, all on the chopping block, adding $4 trillion to the debt.Tell me, at the end of the day, how that is good for America? I don't think you can make the case.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Education is another front in this fight with the President. And I want to ask you about what's happening in Virginia. We saw the University of Virginia's President, James Ryan, resign on Friday. This was extraordinary. This was a pressure campaign from the Trump administration over diversity, or so-called DEI programs. In the letter, and I want to read this, Ryan wrote that if he had tried to fight back, hundreds of employees would lose jobs, researchers would lose funding, and hundreds of students could lose financial aid or have their visas withheld. But, he resigned to avoid this. Is that now the playbook for other university presidents: walk away, don't have the fight?

SEN. WARNER: This is the most outrageous action, I think, this crowd has taken on education. We have great public universities in Virginia. We have a very strong governance system, where we have an independent board of visitors appointed by the Governor. Jim Ryan had done a very good job; just completed a major capital campaign. For him to be threatened, and, literally, there was indication that they received the letter that if he didn't resign on a day last week, by five o'clock, all these cuts would take place. —

MARGARET BRENNAN: — It was that explicit? —

SEN. WARNER: — It was that explicit. —

MARGARET BRENNAN: This is- but that sounds personal. That doesn't sound specific to policy or changes. Like, how does the next university president get in line and get the money?

SEN. WARNER: You're shocked it's coming- personal attacks are coming out of this administration? This is, you know- I thought the Republicans were about states' rights. I thought the Republicans were about, let's transfer more power in the States. This federal D.O.E. and Department of Justice should get their nose out of University of Virginia. They are doing damage to our flagship university. And if they can do it here, they'll do it elsewhere. At the end of the day, I understand that, with so many things at stake, that the idea, and I think Jim Ryan laid it out, that he was going to make his personal- personal job more important than these cuts. But, boy, that shouldn't have been the choice.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, and we know that the universe that the administration is looking at more universities, and the assistant A.G., Harmeet Dhillon, indicated that publicly, and University of California is next to the crosshairs, so we're going to be watching that carefully —

SEN. WARNER: They all want to make them like Harvard. They want to take on public universities, the way they have now taken on the Ivys. End of the day, this is going to hurt ouruniversities, chase away what world-class talent. And, frankly, if we don't have some level of academic freedom, then what kind of country are we?

MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you about your oversight role on intelligence. You were briefed on what's going on with Iran. You said you fear the American people are being given a false sense of comfort with these declarations of mission accomplished. Do you believe U.S. intelligence knows how much of a capability Iran maintains now?

SEN. WARNER: I don't think we have final assessments. Let me- first of all, we don't want Iran to have a nuclear weapon. Secondly, the military performed an extraordinary mission, and I think they affected a great deal of damage to Iran's facilities. But, the idea that the President of the United States, with no data, two hours after the strike, is suddenly hitting the standard of saying total obliteration. That leads us to think that they are out of the game, and we don't know that yet. And, let's just be clear, you can actually set back the major program where they were trying to create, potentially, and there'd been no decision made by the Ayatollah to actually move towards weaponization, but where they could have a weaponized system with a dozen-plus missiles that are nuclear warned. But what they don't know is they didn't, and this was appropriate, I'm not criticizing the administration; they didn't go after the enriched uranium that was Isfahan, at that base, because it's buried so deeply —

MARGARET BRENNAN: — They just hit it with Tomahawks, not the bunker-busters —

SEN. WARNER: — So, the fact that they can have, still, enriched uranium, they may have some ability to still cascade that- means they couldstill move forward on something, that might be not delivered by a missile, but a bomb in a trunk of a car. And all I don't want is the American people, or, for that matter, our allies in the region, to rely on a term that was set by the President before he had any facts.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Point taken there on the specifics of the rudimentary bomb. But, coming back to what you just said, there had been no decision by the Supreme Leader to make a weapon. Secretary of State Rubio, on this program, last Sunday, told me it was irrelevant, the answer to that question, because Iran had everything it needed to make and build a weapon. So, based on what you know, was there an emergency? Was there a reason the US had to act in the moment it did?

SEN. WARNER:  We were on the verge of what could have been a much greater war, in terms of Iran and Israel spreading to the whole region. Was there the imminent emergency that would trigger? Because lots of presidents have looked at taking this action, I think that's- that's very debatable. If, at the end of the day, we end up where this peace holds, and Iran doesn't strike back, Hallelujah. But, what we don't know, for example, is Iran going to try to hit us on cyber with this administration cutting, literally, half of our cyber-security personnel in this country? So, I just want to make sure that we- we do this in a measured way. The military did great. We have set them back. But let's not pretend that they don't have any capabilities. And the only way we can get resolution on that, Margaret, and Secretary Rubio acknowledged this in the brief, is if we have boots on the ground with inspectors. That means we've got to go to diplomacy. If America and Iran start negotiating this week, face-to-face, that would be good.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And we were- we will talk to the man who directs those boots on the grounds, potentially, the inspectors later on in the program from the IAEA. Thank you very much, Senator. We're going to have to leave it there. We'll be back in a moment.

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Transcript: Rep. Michael McCaul on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan,” June 29, 2025

Updated on: June 29, 2025 / 1:16 PM EDT/ CBS News

The following is the transcript of an interview with Rep. Michael McCaul, Republican of Texas, that aired on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan" on June 29, 2025.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And we're joined now by Texas Republican Congressman Michael McCaul, good morning to you.

REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL: Good morning. Thanks for having me.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, your Republican colleagues in the Senate have been working hard on trying to get this bill together, and they're probably going to eek it past.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But that's even with GOP lawmakers like Thom Tillis saying they can't stomach what this is going to do to Medicaid, an estimated $930 billion in cuts to it. That's more significant than what you all had voted to do in the House. Are you going to vote again for final passage if it looks like this?

REP. MCCAUL: No, I'm going to vote for it for this reason. I think these numbers, it's all about waste, fraud and abuse in Medicare, Medicaid. What I'm voting for is a border security measure, $80 billion,  $12 billion to reimburse states like mine. I'm voting for $150 billion that will go to our Department of Defense at a time when we saw with Iran, is desperately needed. The world is on fire, Eastern Europe, Indo-Pacific. And then the tax cuts. I mean, if we don't extend these tax cuts, it'll be the largest tax increase in American history for those three reasons. I'm a yes. I think everyone in the House, they know the peril they're in if they vote no on this thing.

MARGARET BRENNAN: What do you mean the peril they're in?

REP. MCCAUL: I think, first of all, it's good for the nation. Secondly, they know that their-their jobs are at risk. Not just from the president, but from the voting- the American people. Our base back home will not reelect us to office if we vote no on this.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But is it about reelection, or is it about the policies, right?

REP. MCCAUL: No-no. It's about- it's about- it's great for the country, and I've outlined the three top points.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But to help me understand then- you have such narrow margins in the house, and you look at these projections from like the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, they say it violates the House instructions by $500 billion or more, what the Senate just put together here, and that deficits could rise more than $3 trillion. How do you get that through when you have fellow conservatives who are fiscal hawks and saying, I can't get with this, like Chip Roy?

REP. MCCAUL: Not to get into the weeds on the economics, but the dynamic scoring is not taken into account here by the Congressional Budget Office. That means that when you cut taxes, you actually get increased revenues to the Treasury. And that's something we saw under President Kennedy, under President Reagan, and under President Bush.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Chip Roy and some of these other fiscal conservatives are going to come along for the ride?

REP. MCCAUL: Well, I think at the end of the day, I think they're going to vote for it.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You do. Let's talk about some of the threats that you mentioned there, at home and abroad. You've been briefed on the actions against Iran. The IAEA director told us here that Iran has capabilities and could be up and running within a matter of months. Do you think it is an overstatement by the White House or a mistake to declare mission accomplished?

REP. MCCAUL: Well, first of all, I respect the IAEA. Their job is to inspect not to be an intelligence agency, so they don't really have the clear intelligence analysis that I would attribute to our intelligence community like the CIA. We met with Director Ratcliffe. It was not just his decision. These are career and intelligence officers that have been at the CIA for over 30 years that made this assessment that it was severely damaged and sets a program back a matter of years. In any event, the world and the Middle East is safer today than it was seven days ago, a week ago. That is highlighted by the fact that the proxies didn't light up. Russia didn't come to their- to their aid. China basically ran back for cover. Iran is on its own and psychologically, is very damaged. The deterrence is real. The damage is real. This is a masterful military operation, the likes of which I haven't seen since my father's war, World War Two.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, on the homeland front, do you then dismiss these concerns about threats? You have the National Terrorism Advisory System that says there's a heightened threat environment in the US. After the strikes, there were federal agents that arrested 11 foreign nationals from Iran, including one who had ties to Hezbollah. Have you seen specific evidence of any kind of threat here in the United States, or is it, as you say, just done and over with?

REP. MCCAUL: No, I have. We picked up 11 Iranians, one a sniper, one IRGC, another one, a known suspected terrorist, just within the last couple of days.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Were they planning to do anything, or did they just happen to have those alliances from the past?

REP. MCCAUL: You know, I don't know all the details, but I will tell you the FBI briefed me in a defensive briefing after Soleimani was killed. I was a part of that–

MARGARET BRENNAN: — that I was under indictment in Iran and that I was on that top target list. So, you know, look- is it imminent? I don't know. We have to take it seriously that there could be sleeper cells in the United States, that could go after people like Mike Pompeo, John Bolton, you know- you know- myself and others that were involved in that decision making and including the president of the United States. We know he's been targeted.

MARGARET BRENNAN: When it comes to detention of migrants here in the United States, it's a high 59,000 detainees, according to ICE. 47% of them, though, lack a criminal record, fewer than 30% have been convicted of crimes. Doesn't that show that the numbers- these aren't the worst of the worst.

REP. MCCAUL: Yeah, I was a federal prosecutor for many years. Counterterrorism. You have to prioritize, right? I would prioritize the aggravated felons that my Mayorkas let in, in defiance of federal law. It was shall detain. He said, may detain and let them out into the streets. I would, I would prioritize that first.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you would prefer that Homeland Security prioritize them and not run up the numbers the way they are in this–

REP. MCCAUL: I think they're running the numbers up because 15 to 20 million people came under the- under the Biden administration, and they're trying to get some sanity involved in the United States. And I think deterrence is the key here. And Margaret, it is working. You know, the apprehension rate at the border, and Texas is the biggest one, has gone down to almost zero. I mean, the border is just about secure, catch and release is over, and the threats are going away.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mike McCaul, Congressman, thank you very much for your insights today.

REP. MCCAUL: Thanks, Margaret, thanks for having me.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And we'll be back with more Face the Nation. Stay with us.

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Transcript: Scott Gottlieb on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan,” June 29, 2025

Updated on: June 29, 2025 / 1:16 PM EDT/ CBS News

The following is the transcript of an interview with former FDA commissioner Scott Gottlieb, Pfizer board member and non-executive chairman of the board at Illumina, that aired on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan" on June 29, 2025.

MARGARET BRENNAN: For a look now at some of the changes to America's public health policies under the Trump administration, we're joined by former FDA Commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb, who sits on the board at Pfizer and is now the Chairman of the Board at Illumina. Good morning. Good to see you.

DOCTOR SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Good morning.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You know, Dr. Gottlieb, you worked in the first Trump administration. This second Trump administration seems very different in its approach to public health on a lot of fronts. One of them was really laid bare this week with this newly remade Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, or ACIP. Secretary Kennedy had dismissed about 17 members of the existing board and put in some members of his own choice. And in a video, the president of the American Academy of Pediatrics said federal immunization policy is, quote, 'no longer a credible process' and it's being politicized at the expense of children. That's a pretty stunning statement. Do you agree with the Academy of Pediatrics?

DR. GOTTLIEB: Look, you're right. I worked in the first Trump administration. I was fortunate to do that and proud to serve in that administration. I think we did a lot of important things on public health. We presided over the first cell and gene therapy approvals. The president tried to expand access to those treatments through the Right to Try legislation that he championed. He supported the FDA on an effort to try to keep tobacco products out of the hands of kids, record number of generic approvals, and a lot of other accomplishments. I think a lot of people on my side of the political aisle feel that a lot of these policies that Secretary Kennedy is championing are- are going to be contained to vaccines and not bleed into a broader public health doctrine. I think that's not right. I think there's a lot of people now who don't think these things are particularly political, or shouldn't be, and don't think these decisions should be politically decided, who are going to find when they go to the doctor's office that vaccines that they may want to protect their lives or the lives of their families aren't going to be available. This does look like a political process right now. The secretary is going after issues that have long been bugaboos of him and his anti-vax group, Children's Health Defense. I don't think that's mistakable at this point. I think that he would probably acknowledge that. That he's taking on issues that he's championed for the last 20 years to restrict access to certain vaccines. That's going to grow. The list is growing, and it's going to start to be very tangible for people and go well beyond just the COVID vaccine, which is, I think, what most people think about when they perceive this administration's, or the secretary's efforts, to try to restrict access to vaccines.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So one of the specific things from this meeting was advice to avoid flu vaccines containing an ingredient called thimerosal. Right around the same time as the meeting, the CDC removed information from its website that debunked claims that this ingredient was linked to autism. Secretary Kennedy says it's- it's journalists who are obscuring the truth. What do people need to know about the flu vaccine and this ingredient?

DR. GOTTLIEB: Yeah, so this is an old ingredient. It's a preservative used in multi-dose vials of flu vaccine, primarily. Only a very small percentage of flu vaccine vials still contain it. What it is is an ingredient that's added to multi-dose vials because those vials you're going to go in and out of with different needles as you administer the vaccine to different patients. So they're not single dose injections. They're multi-dose vials that primarily used in some busy clinics, almost exclusively in adults right now. Back in the early 2000s, I was at FDA when we reformulated the vaccine, so we compelled manufacturers to reformulate the vaccines to take this preservative out. Not because we thought it was unsafe, but because there was a lot of consternation among anti-vax groups that they thought that there was a link between this ingredient and autism. The ingredient does contain small amounts of ethylmercury, not methylmercury, ethylmercury, which is the same kind of mercury found in fish, in very small- very small amounts. And so we compelled the manufacturers to reformulate the vast majority of vaccines, still four percent of flu vaccines that get administered, mostly to adults, are from these multi-dose vials. This has long been a bugaboo of the secretary and his group, the Children's Health Defense Fund. In fact, the only presentation at the ACIP meeting was from the head of that group. And you're right that there was a countering analysis from the CDC officials asserting that there's no link between thimerosal and autism. That- that analysis was taken down from the website. The secretary put out a statement that said that it wasn't- it didn't go through proper review.

MARGARET BRENNAN: We're going to take a break, Dr. Gottlieb, and talk more with you on the other side of this. These are complicated issues I want to dig into with you. So we hope all of you will stay with us.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to Face the Nation. We return to our conversation with former FDA commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb. Dr. Gottlieb, just to pick back up, we were talking about the meeting that took place this past week with the newly reconstituted Advisory Committee on Immunization. Republican Senator Bill Cassidy, you know him, he's a doctor. He has oversight and chairs the Health Committee. He called for the meeting to be canceled because he said there's no CDC director in place. And when it comes to these appointees, he said many of them 'do not have significant experience studying microbiology, epidemiology or immunology' and they may have 'preconceived bias' against mRNA vaccines. It's- I'm not a doctor, but it seems to me that experience in immunology would be important if you're advising on immunizations. His counsel was ignored here. Is there any check on Secretary Kennedy, at this point? Is there a need to get a CDC director in place quickly?

DR. GOTTLIEB: Yeah, well, the CDC director had a confirmation hearing this week, and hopefully she'll be in place soon. I think she's quite strong and a good pick for that job. The board, this ACIP board, isn't fully constituted. There's only seven members on the board. At its peak membership, it has about 15. And you're right, a lot of the people who have been appointed don't have deep experience, or any experience, quite frankly, in vaccine science. They are people who have been ideologically aligned with Secretary Kennedy in the past and worked with him, many of them, not all of them. And I think that that isn't something that even the secretary would probably dispute at this time, and it did lead to some awkward moments at that meeting. For example, you know, one member had to have explained to him the difference between an antibody prophylaxis and a vaccine. So there were evidence in that discussion where the CDC directors had to provide some, quite frankly, remedial assistance to help brief these members on the basis of vaccine science. So it did show, hopefully, once they fully constitute that board, you're going to get more balance on it. I think some people are skeptical. I remain hopeful that there will be some good members that get seated eventually.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You know, one of the things about the American health system is that question of continued innovation. Earlier this month, the FDA approved a twice yearly injection of an HIV prevention drug called lenacapavir. How significant is an innovation like that, and given the environment you're talking about, will these new advisors get in the way of being able to get those kind of things to market?

DR. GOTTLIEB: Yeah, this shouldn't come before ACIP. So this is a therapeutic. It's a long acting antiviral that provides six months of protection against HIV and was extremely effective at preventing HIV infection in a population that was high risk of contracting HIV. So it's a change in the formulation of an antiviral that allows it to be administered just twice a year and provide sustained exposure to the benefits of that antiviral. We're seeing a lot of innovation like this. There was also news this week from a small biotech company that I don't have any involvement with, that they had developed a pill that could provide sustained protection against flu. So it's an antiviral, but it is formulated in a way where it- it could be administered once ahead of flu season, to provide protection across the entire season, and also look to be very effective. So we're seeing a lot of innovations like this. What I'm worried about is innovation in vaccine science. I work on the venture capital side, where we make investments in- in new companies, and there has been a pullback of biotech startups that have been looking to develop new vaccines, for example, vaccines for Epstein-Barr Virus, which we know is linked to certain B-cell lymphomas, and maybe is linked to multiple sclerosis. That- that's a new area of science, the potential to vaccinate children against that, much like we vaccinate kids against HPV right now and prevent cervical cancer and other types of cancers. Maybe in the future, we may be vaccinating for EBV, but there's been a lot of pullback to that kind of investment. So I think we're going to see less innovation in vaccine science as a result of the environment we're in.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Quickly, Secretary Kennedy was asked this week about the declarations in some states to start removing fluoride from water. Oklahoma made some moves that direction. He said you're going to see 'probably slightly more cavities,' but 'there's a direct inverse correlation between the amount of fluoride in your water and your loss of IQ.' What should parents be thinking about when they hear things like that?

DR. GOTTLIEB: Well, look, this has been a long standing issue, another issue that Secretary Kennedy has championed over his career, this perceived- perception that there's a link between fluoride and water and some neurotoxic effects of that. That's been studied thoroughly. It's been, I think, fully debunked. There's very small amounts of fluoride in water, and at the levels that it's put into the water supply, it's been demonstrated to be safe. CDC's- has data showing that there's a 25% reduction in dental caries as a result of fluoride that's added routinely to the water supply. It's not just a question of increased dental cavities, but also oral health more generally, which we know is correlated to systemic health.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Dr. Gottlieb, good to get your insight today. We'll be right back.

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